1. Choose 2 quotes from pages 33-89. At least one of the quotes should be challenging. Look for metaphors, for lines whose relation to the book you just don't get, or lines which you just don't get. Copy them into a post on the blog as a comment to this post.
2. Choose another post's quotes and use them to come up with a question or discovery that would begin a paragraph. Post this question or discovery as a comment to the post with the quotes.
3. Choose a set of quotes with their question or discovery and write a paragraph. Start the paragraph with that question or discovery, and use the quotes in your paragraph. Post your paragraph as a comment to the question or discovery post.
4. Read the posts with which you were involved: the discovery and paragraph that followed from your quotes, and the paragraph that followed from your discovery. Choose something to share with the class.
"You're in bad shape. It looks like you're developing a soul" (86).
ReplyDelete"They were the same, all one: humanized, perfected men. It was the sublimest, the most moving beauty, harmony, music.... I wanted to go down there at once, to them, to be with them!" (81).
Why is perfection associated with a lack of humanization and a lack of a soul?
DeleteWhy in this soceity does having a soul mean you cannot be "humanized" or perfect?
Delete"... and I tasted a swallow of burning poison, and another, and another, and I broke free of the earth, a free planet, whirling furiously, down, down along some orbit yet to be calculated" (56).
ReplyDelete"But you cannot say about small-- I'm talking about the concept of smell-- that is good or bad right?" (37).
Why are alcohol and "smell" related to a sense of "unknown" in these descriptions?
DeleteWhy are alcohol and "smell" related to a sense of "unknown" in these descriptions?
DeleteIn "We", alcohol and smell are linked to the feeling of unfamiliarity because they evoke feelings that are not able to be understood. In the society of "We", these substances and senses are not able to be accepted and intelligently explained; they are very complicated and therefore do not fit in with a simple, perfect world. For instance, D-503 is with I-330 when he drinks alcohol and tastes, "...a swallow of burning poison, and another, and another, and I broke free of the earth, a free planet, whirling furiously, down, down along some orbit yet to be calculated" (56). Here, D-503 experiences a feeling he cannot control because of his consumption of alcohol, and this is something he does not understand. Uncontrollable feelings and actions that are difficult to mathematically explain are alien to the society of "We".
"These were notes certifying that we were sick, that we could not show up for work. I was stealing my labor from OneState. I was a thief. I was headed for the Benefactor's Machine" pg 72
ReplyDelete"It was a sign of the superhuman might of the Benefactor." pg 48
The benefactor is a benevolent figure, where defiance is comparable to sin, and the Benefactor's Machine hell.
DeleteThe benefactor is clearly a benevolent figure - it seems as though he looks out for everyone and sets them on the best paths possible. Therefore, any defiance to him is like a sin - it is an act against the Benefactor himself, yourself, as well as the society as a whole. D-503 shows this when he declares himself a thief for "stealing his labor from Onestate." By not working for the Benefactor he is defying him, thus committing a sin of sorts. When the human melts into a puddle, D-503 says that it shows the might of the Benefactor. This machine is "hell" because it dissociates humans... If D-503 sees that the Benefactor is almighty, why does he still disobey him? It seems that he would be afraid of avoiding work, but I-330(?) has an effect on him that makes him go against his beliefs. Therefore, I-330's charm seems to blind D-503 of the power of the Benefactor that he previously respected and turn him into a thief. Can someone's charm really warp another's beliefs to this degree?
Delete"That means you love it. You're afraid of it because its stronger than you, you hate it because you're afraid of it, you love it because you can't master it. You can only love something that refuses to be mastered" (71).
ReplyDelete"Never again was I to blend into the precise mechanical rhythm, never to sail on the serene and mirror-like sea. My fate was to burn forever, to rush hither and yon...forever, until I found the strength at last to go through..." (82).
D-503 used to love OneState because he was afraid of it, but now he hates OneState, so does that mean that he is not afraid of the united OneState?
DeleteOneState uses fear to twist hatred into fate. Through its own logic "You're afraid of it because its strong than you, you hate it because you're afraid of it, you love it because you can't master it." In this sense, strength and power creates fear, and fear creates hatred, but this same strength creates love in the form of respect, not of maternal or happy love. The love that OneState seeks is not of equality, but a love that humbles people below it. This mesh of love and hate creates for OneState the power to leave people not knowing what their feelings really mean, thus OneState not only controls their eveyday life, but their thoughts and feelings. Once D-503 realizes this, he reaches an enlightenment, and with this enlightment he is no longer able to live in ignorance and happiness with OneState dictating his life. D-503 emulates elements of Siddhartha Gutama, who saw the suffering in his life, and thus could no longer live his lavish life knowing of the real suffering going on around him. "Never again was [he] able to blend into the precise mechanical rythm, never to sail on the serene and mirrir-like sea. [His] fate was to brun foreever, to rush hither and yon... forever unitl [he] found the streith at last to go thoruhg".
Delete"I've looked over these records of mine, and it's clear to me that I've been fooling myself, I've been lying to myself, and all because I did not want to see that" (39).
ReplyDelete"And so what difference does it make, one absurdity more or less? Besides, I am certain that sooner or later I'm going to be able to fit any absurdity into a syllogism. I find that comforting, and I hope it comforts you" (74).
Why has D503 been lying to himself about irrational roots even though he has the confidence that he will be able to fit everything into a "syllogism?"
DeleteWhy has D503 been lying to himself about irrational roots even though he has the confidence that he will be able to fit everything into a "syllogism"? D503 believes that everything in OneState works as part of a larger and greater machine, but then as he starts writing on a daily basis he comes to the realization that he has been lying to himself. He says, "I've looked over these records of mine, and it's clear to me that I've been fooling myself, I've been lying to myself, and all because I did not want to see that" (39). But then he says, "And so what difference does it make, one absurdity more or less? Besides, I am certain that sooner or later I'm going to be able to fit any absurdity into a syllogism. I find that comforting, and I hope it comforts you" (74). Maybe he believes that anything he may feel is simply a part of the grander scheme of life in OneState, that there is always an explanation. After all, in math there is always an explanation for thing. So maybe he beleives that he really wasn't lying to himself or if he was it all fits into "syllogism." He has been contradicting himself because as writes, more ideas that he didn't know he had existed come out from the inner depths of his soul that represent ideas of humanity. However, his beliefs in syllogism, math, and perfection still prevail and tell him that these contradicting beliefs are absurd, but have an explanation in terms of "syllogism." He just has yet to figure out the true reasoning behind these new ideas. When he talks about his "records" he understands that he has been lying to himself, but then he attempts to reaasure himself that everything makes sense in his perfect world.
Delete"I became glass. I saw into myself, inside"(56).
ReplyDelete" His old self again: his lips smacked, he sprayed you, the words welled up in him"(61).
Does D-503 have difficulty not only seeing himself for who he truly is, but expressing himself because he has learned to adopt the ideals of the government and ignore his own?
DeleteDoes D-503 have difficulty not only seeing himself for who he truly is, but expressing himself because he has learned to adopt the ideals of the government and ignore his own?
DeleteI think this is definitely hard for him seeing as the concept of individuality directly contrasts everything that he has been taught. Even though he says things like "I became glass. I saw into myself, inside" (56), this concept of knowing himself s contrasted countless times through the double voice that D-503 has. Kind of like Nora from A Dolls House, D-503 realizes his individuality and then contrasts it with the feelings that he might be sick, talking himself out of expressing that individuality and denying that it is even there in the first place.
"His old self again: lips smacked, he sprayed you, the words welled up in him" (61). After this quote, R begins talking about Paradise. He eventually comes to the conclusion that their society has reached paradise. They have achieved the "ancients" view of paradise. He relates simplicity and happiness explaining that to be happy and achieve paradise, the society has to be simple.
Does happiness really depend on the simplicity of society?
D503 obviously isn't happy with this double voice inside his head, society hasn't achieved his views of paradise. Does this mean that the individuality that he is trying to suppress should have a place in society? If Onestate's goal of society is paradise then they have not achieved it.The governmentof Onestate has not achieved paradise because they leave no room for individuality.
"That means you love it. You're afraid of it because it's stronger than you, you hate it because you're afraid of it, you love it because you can't master it. You can only love something that refuses to be mastered" (71).
ReplyDelete"The ancients knew what was up there: their magnificent, bored skeptic- God.We know that's it's a crystalline blue, naked, indecent nothing. Now I don't know what's there. I've learned too much. Knowledge that is absolutely sure it's infallible- that's faith, I had a firm faith in myself, I believed I knew everything about myself" (59)
In "We", the people of Onestate mastered religious influences, and God himself.
DeleteIn "We," the people of Onestate mastered religious influences, and God himself; or so they think. D-503 mentions an order of power and how people can use their power over others in order to instill fear. He then continues to talk about a love he has for things he cannot master, and he cannot master things he is afraid of because they posses more power than he does. Is he drawing a parallel between love and fear? D-503 also has replaced god with the government; he thinks of a heavenly "God" as "a crystalline blue, naked, indecent nothing." He almost places himself above God because of all of the knowledge he thinks he has. His complete reliance on knowledge has taken the place of all things mystical and imaginative in his life, like when he says "knowledge that is absolutely sure is infallible-that's faith."
Delete"Still, he, O, and I ... We're a triangle, maybe not isosceles but still a triangle. If you want to put it in the language of our ancestors (a language that might be more understandable to you, my planetary readers), we're a family. And sometimes it is so good to rest, even if not for long, to lock yourself up in a strong simple triangle away from all that" (44)
ReplyDelete"the highest thing in Man is his reason, and what the work of reason comes down to is the continual limitation of infinity, dividng infinity up into convenient, easily digestible portions: differentiation." (64)
If infinity is meant to be limited,and people limit and separate themselves, the value of structures that used to be of unlimited love, such as family, is decreased.
DeleteIf infinity is meant to be limited, and people limit and separate themselves, the value of structures that used to be of unlimited love, such as family, is decreased. The gov. of Onestate has taught that the highest thing in man is his reason and reason is what helps divide infinity into limitations. As people learn to hold reason higher, their sense of emotions decrease, such as the love for one's family. However, those emotions remain in tact, even if they haven't been used for a while, "And sometimes it is good to rest...away from all that"(44)Maybe that is what some people desire, and when this desire is satisfied, one can rest assured in the thoughts of love; any sort of love, familial, wife/husband, and friendly love.
Delete"We're a triangle, maybe not isosceles but still a triangle. IF you want to put it in the language of our ancestors (a language that might be more understandable to you, my planetary readers), we're a family. And sometimes it is so good to rest, even if not for long, to lock yourself up in a strong simple triangle away from all that..."(44)
ReplyDelete"I'm alone. Evening. A little foggy. Milky-gold cloth over the sky. What's beyond it? If only one could know. And know who I am, what am I?" (63)
Why is it that despite D-503 claiming to know who he is mathematically that he still questions his own being?
DeleteWhy is it that despite D-503 claiming to know who he is mathematically that he still questions his own being?D-503 questions his own being because he is realizing that he cannot be separated from the world, and once he discovers this, being alone is terrifying. What he sees as a family is, in many ways, like a family, but he attempts to limit his being to that setting and to the setting of OneState. D-503 says, "We're a triangle, maybe not isosceles but still a triangle. IF you want to put it in the language of our ancestors (a language that might be more understandable to you, my planetary readers), we're a family. And sometimes it is so good to rest, even if not for long, to lock yourself up in a strong simple triangle away from all that..."(44). Though D-503 feels that O and R are his family, he was able to choose his family. They're solace to him, but not in the way that family truly is, where everyone is bound to each other and must love each other, or at least have some connection. He has no real family, and he is isolated, but like a child growing up, he starts to wonder what exists outside of his "family." Once he begins to feel this, he realizes that his "family" does not fulfill the true meaning of the word. Real family is complicated, and, in emerging from his simplified version, D-503 wonders what else is out there, saying, "I'm alone. Evening. A little foggy. Milky-gold cloth over the sky. What's beyond it? If only one could know. And know who I am, what am I?" (63). Now, everything is clouded and the things that he believed to be so simple, like his surroundings or his triangle, are confusing and different. Nothing is certain, and he begins to evolve from child-like innocence and, though he believes he knows everything that is real, to questioning who he is and what truly exists around him.
Delete"What was not to understand? I remember thinking: 'He looks dumb and asymmetrical, but how straight his mind thinks.' That's why he's close to me, to the real me (I still regard the former me as the real one; this present me is of course nothing but some illness)." (62) "The two of us walked along as one. Somewhere a long ways off through the fog you could hear the sun singing, everything was supple, pearly, golden, pink, red. The whole world was one immense woman and we were in her very womb, we hadn't yet been born, we were joyously ripening. And it was clear, unshakably clear, that all of this was for me: the sun, the fog, the pink, the gold - for me." (71)
ReplyDeleteWhat do these quotes say about D-503's and the human race in general's conflicting opinions about what they are told is right for them and what they feel is right for them
DeleteHumanity opinion on what is right for themselves is a double sided idea. On one hand, our instincts tell us to follow what our parents and those above us tell us to do, because they clearly know, otherwise they wouldn't be in the position that they were. On the other hand, many humans treat themselves and their own opinions as the best, and don't listen to other people, as they know that they're right. These quotes show how D-503 treats his former self, the one that obeyed the society to the fullest as the true him. That is his natural will to follow showing, but then later on when he is with I-330 he feels more real, even though he is breaking the laws of the society.
Delete"Their God couldn't come up with any smarter idea than sacrificing yourself, never mind why. But we, when we sacrifice to our God, OneState, we make a calm, rational, carefully considered sacrifice." (45).
ReplyDelete"Wasn't it full of the most improbably things, wasn't it just like that ancient sickness called dreaming? And so what difference does it make, one absurdity more or less." (74).
Does irrational thinking benefit or harm society?
DeleteIrrational thinking is extremely detrimental to society, because it is almost ignorance to a point. When he says "their God couldn't come up with any smarter idea than sacrificing yourself, never mind why. But we, when we sacrifice to our God, OneState, we make a calm, rational, carefully considered sacrifice." D-503's thinking is affected by the society he grew up in, so he doesn't understand the concept of God as it existed before OneState. The entire core of the old personal sacrifice to god is that a person does it freely, of their own accord, choosing to do something that others may not understand but it didn't matter because that was the person's own choice. He can't rationally understand that people did things according to their heart, without necessarily a purpose, but for their own fulfillment. The same applies to the second quote, where he says "Wasn't it full of the most improbable things, wasn't it just like that ancient sickness called dreaming? And so what difference does it make, one absurdity more or less?". The fact that he calls dreaming a sickness is interesting, because obviously dreaming doesn't exist in this society. In our society, dreams don't hold much weight in the real world, but to take away that inner human happiness of though is really a horrifying decision by OneState. They irrationally think that they can take away that human process and make the world better, when actually taking away something that doesn't mean all that much in terms of logic, like dreaming, destroys all concept of human individuality. And while this is what they want, at the same time there will always be those who realize that because it was taken away from them, they now want it more and will do anything to get it back.
Delete"I see the INTEGRAL thinking about its great and terrifying future, about the heavy burden of inescapable happiness that it will carry there, upward, to you, the unknown ones, to you who seek eternally and never find." (80)
ReplyDelete"I am looking at myself, at him, and I am absolutely certain that he, with his ruler-straight eye-brows, is a stranger, somebody else, I just met him for the first time in my life. And I'm the real one. I AM NOT HIM." (59)
Although they function as a group, the numbers of OneState need some sort of individuality in the for of the INTERGRAL, which, while it is not them, is still an individual system.
DeleteLike our society today, people in the world of We seek individuality. But why do they seek individuality when their society has supposedly found indestructible happiness? People like D503 are unsatisfied with this supposedly perfect happiness because it burdens them and restricts them from finding their own happiness. It is true that society often determines what people believe will create happiness, but even when people feel rewarded by accomplishing what society tells them to they may not truly be happy. This is because whiles society can change happiness, happiness can change society. People must find their own happiness according to their own definition, which in turn shapes what society thinks of as happiness.
Deletep33
ReplyDeleteThey say in the old days it was the most normal thing in the world to have dreams. Which makes sense: Their whole life was some kind of horrible merry-go-round of green, orange, Buddha, juice.
p70
Gray yunies woven out of damp fog hastily swam into existence near me, and the next minute dissolved in the fog.
*I'll write myself since nobody replied...
DeleteWhy are dreams considered part of the "old days.?"
Dreams are pursued individually, and implies a difference from the "herd instinct." I chose these two quotes because there's a lot of symbolism in the quote on p70 which could give us some insight into the important underlying theme in the novel of individuality and its suppression. The Gray yunies could be the pursuit of dreams, and how they disappear could represent that nobody pursues them anymore. Also, it could possibly represent a similar effect in the protagonist
"And for the first time in my life, I swear it, for the very first time in my life, I get a clear, distict, conscious look at myself; I see myself and I I'm astonnished, like I'm looking at some 'him'". (59)
ReplyDelete"There were two me's. One me was the onld one, D-503, Number D-503,a dn the other... The other used to just stick his hairy paws out of his shell, but now all of him came out, the shell burst open, and te pieces were just about to fly in all directions... and then what?" (56)
*Reposted as a reply
DeleteThe effect of forced happiness yields detrimental effects on the sense of self.
The effect of forced happiness yields detrimental effects on the sense of self.
ReplyDelete